Good food, great discussion, and all of it free. It boggles the mind that more didn't attend!

We had a Pugwash meeting this evening on the topic of the ID/evolution debate, and what we as scientists can do to promote good science. Pugwash is named after Pugwash, Nova Scotia, where many eminent scientists first met in the middle of the last century to discuss the ethical implications of their work and their responsibilities to society at large.

There didn't actually seem to be any ID supporters in the crowd. The organizer tried to play Devil's advocate at first, but didn't have much to work with. We discussed the arguments for and against ID at first, then moved on to discussing why it doesn't belong in the science classroom and what we can do about it.

The main point that I took away from it was that more critical thinking skills are needed in schools in general, because good science is difficult enough to distinguish from bad science as it is. We can (and should) address the ID issue directly, but ultimately that's only a band-aid solution. It doesn't do any good for students to accept evolutionary theory just because teacher told them so: we must teach them how to think, and not what to think.

I sat next to a guy who was very strongly atheistic. Most of us didn't have a problem with ID being taught in, say, Philosophy class, but he was vigorously opposed to any form it might take, referring to it several times as a "dangerous idea". Funny, that's what fundamentalists usually say about atheism! Ultimately, I see the people who declare religion and science incompatible, no matter which they advocate, as flip sides of the same coin. As a religious person and a scientist, I strongly disagree with the both of 'em.

There was one person who was there from the beginning, and was relatively quiet compared to the rest of us. He made a comment about the compatibility of religion and science, and how they complement each other. Right on! He left soon after. I wish we would have heard more of what he had to say; there might have been some insights we missed out on.

Ah well. Now that I'm well fed (a bit too much so, perhaps) and home, I haven't really got any excuse not to prepare tomorrow's recitation.

Greetings Chip,

Name's John and we've never met before. Came across the site here. Interesting take on this subject. I guess you would be called a theistic evolutionist. You mentioned how someone made a comment about religion and science complementing each other. This is an intriguing assertion. Could you expand on it a bit? Possibly with an example? How do you reconcile the Bible with evolution?

I totally agree with you that critical thinking is grossly underemphasized in school. I wasn't exposed to actual critical thinking until college philosophy.

Rough news about Kansas. At least Dover has some sense (now that they have a newly elected board and all).

Bit about me:
1st year Law & Security
Niagara College (Welland Campus)

Cheers,
John
logicprobe@atheistnetwork.net

Hi John,

Welcome to the site! I'm intensely curious: however did you stumble across my site? I don't advertise that I'm aware of -- well, apart from a few signatures here and there.

I guess I'd call myself a theistic evolutionist, as you say. The evolutionist part is because I evaluated the evidence insofar as I was able, and came to what seems plainly to be the most rational conclusion. As for the theistic part, a quick glance at my blog will tell you I'm an Orthodox Christian. How do I reconcile evolution with the Bible? I note that the Church has no problem with it, and I simply don't read Genesis literally. I haven't got a specific reconciliation in terms of "this is what happened, and when"; I have no problem simply saying "I don't know".

In a nutshell, I believe that religion and science complement each other because they address different questions. The "why" of science is a mechanistic "why", concerned with proximate ("Natural") causes. Religion, on the other hand, is concerned with what is "behind" all of this, with deeper meanings. Of course, a perfectly acceptable answer to the latter question is the "nothing" of the atheist, but the science is the same in either case. I think the complementarity of these fields was best expressed by Einstein, who said "Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."

To answer the burning question, it was a signature I found the address in. "For every Kansas, there's a Dover". I thought that was an interesting asessment (glass half full).

I have a passing familiarity with the Brock Christian Fellowship (friend of mine is a member). I came across your post while perusing the website.

There are quite a few clubs at Brock. I've been at Niagara for a while and the closest I've found to clubs are the Student Admin Council, Campus Watch (Niagara's version of foot patrol although not technically a club), and the on-campus drinking club (okay I made that one up).

;-)

I just changed that today, when I responded to the Creation/Evolution post at BCF (which site I designed). Would I know your friend, or likely not?

As you read there, I was really annoyed to be forced to miss the seminar. The Lutherans at Brock are sort of my "home crowd", as my dad taught at the seminary for 6-7 years. Also, I was a literal Creationist for my first 22 years, unambiguously rejecting evolutionary theory, thanks largely to their teachings. While I don't hold it against them, I do think it would be a lot of fun to explore their reasons for rejecting science now that I'm on the "other side", so to speak.

You might know them. They're # 72.

I can relate. I actually debated against evolution in favour of literal creationism (6000 years and everything) in a high school history class. I can't believe how far off I was, in retrospect. I didn't even really know what evolution was!

Yeah, I know Dana! We met a few times during my tenure at BCF.

I can relate about not knowing what evolution was. I was obviously in the same boat. For me it was the TalkOrigins FAQ that put my misconceptions to rest.

Right on! Talk Origins is an excellent resource. By far, my favourite section is the "Index to Creationist Claims". It's been SO helpful.

Yeah Dana's cool. I met her back in May when we started working for the same company (same training class). Neither of us works there anymore but FORTUNATELY we stayed friends, which is more than I can say for most of the others in our class (too bad because our class was awesome). Leave a job and you tend to grow apart from former coworkers.